Fetus Wars
It's funny, yesterday I post on the South Dakota abortion law, and was complimented by Gun Toting Liberal for the civil discourse around here on such a contentious issue, then today find a place that isn't having such a nice discussion on it.
I was lead there because a regular reader/commenter here, Lone Pony, delinked them after her heartfelt comment on the issue was met with ridicule, and pretty snide remarks.
One of the funny things about the blog having that fight is the owners disdain for statistics, and numbers. So, I thought I'd toss a few of the statistics on abortion up here (From The Alan Guttmacher Institute):
The other idea is that poor women have more abortions based on less birth control, but the same study found that the difference in use rates between those in poverty and those not in poverty was so small as to be insignificant!
If you'd like to look at more numbers, and conclusions from them, here are two references:
Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2002 (Centers For Disease Control)
Contraceptive Use Among U.S. Women Having Abortions in 2000-2001 (Guttmacher)
Technorati Tags: Abortion, Birth Control
I was lead there because a regular reader/commenter here, Lone Pony, delinked them after her heartfelt comment on the issue was met with ridicule, and pretty snide remarks.
One of the funny things about the blog having that fight is the owners disdain for statistics, and numbers. So, I thought I'd toss a few of the statistics on abortion up here (From The Alan Guttmacher Institute):
On the basis of our survey findings, we estimate that of the 1.3 million women who underwent induced abortions in 2000, 608,000 had not been using a contraceptive method around the time they became pregnant, 610,000 had been using a method but not consistently or correctly, and 95,000 had thought they were using the method perfectly but became pregnant because of method failure.That comes out to 7.6% who got abortions got them because of an actual birth control failure, which is much smaller than the shrill folks on the other side of the argument use.
The other idea is that poor women have more abortions based on less birth control, but the same study found that the difference in use rates between those in poverty and those not in poverty was so small as to be insignificant!
If you'd like to look at more numbers, and conclusions from them, here are two references:
Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2002 (Centers For Disease Control)
Contraceptive Use Among U.S. Women Having Abortions in 2000-2001 (Guttmacher)
Technorati Tags: Abortion, Birth Control
posted by Crazy Politico at 8:16 PM
11Comments:
And 81% of the folks in America think there should be some restrictions on when folks can make that choice.
I don't get the logic that says because you messed up (or didn't use) birth control, now you must be punished by having a baby you don't want. Why not just set a fine? Mandatory classes and sex probation until BC certificate is earned. ;)
However, I do agree there should be restrictions in the third trimester, though I don't know the stats on how many women/doctors really just decide to abort an eight-month pregnancy on a whim. I think these are rare cases and only for severe health reaons.
Re the nasties: this is a tough issue with extremely passionate opinions on both sides that are almost impossible to reconcile, EXCEPT for the issue of BC, which most reasonable people could agree is the solution. Just make better BC available to everyone, etc.
I have been told to go F*** yourself by the Conservative UAW guy because he did not like a comment I made regarding my being against the Iraq war, so you don't need to be a "lieberal" (one of ABFREEDOM's fav insults) to attract heat from the right wing. So don't tell me that conservatives are any better in this regard. What about the pastor who goes to the burials of gays and disrupts them by telling the mourners that their loved one is now burning in hell? No, this behavior is not confined to lefties, but crosses party lines. Personally, I am against abortion and would encourage my daughter to have the baby and somehow, as a family, we will cope with it(my wife and I have had a fight over this, and we were just talking "what if". She doesn't feel "but that's our GRANDCHILD!" which is how I would feel). I do not feel that it should be completely illegal, so I'm with Paula. Calling it murder is not going to convince anybody of anything more than you are trying to provoke a reaction, not a discussion. I blame Rush Limbaugh and others on the left as well who have polarized the average citizens with comments that are designed to whip up disagreement (and therefore ratings).
I can't tell you how many "conservatives" have called me a hippie, lier (about being a veteran), etc., because I didn't agree with their radical opinions.
All this about a guy (me)who voted for Dole in 1996, owns guns, voted for McCain in the 2000 primary, etc. "You are either for us or against us". CP- I do not want to live in the RWSA (Right Wing States of America). I am a centrist, believing that both sides bring valid views to the table a rejecting fringe elements from either party, whether they be gay marriage advocates or Operation Rescue.
Lone Pony, I'm sorry that your feelings were hurt, but maybe, instead of digging in your heels and hardening your position, you should take your lumps and be grown up about it. The thing about the internet is that you don't get the body language and therefore people tend to say things that they normally would not if you were in "polite company". I encourage all to listen to the other side and try to find common ground. We are all Americans, after all. CP-sorry for such a long post. I like your blog because it IS a civil place to discuss differing views.
I think Tim has issues; anybody know of a good counselor?
Abortion in the US = Stalin in the USSR. Killed about the same number.
Any questions?
"I don't get the logic that says because you messed up (or didn't use) birth control, now you must be punished by having a baby you don't want."
And yet you accept restrictions on late-term abortions? Where's the logic that because you didn't get an abortion earlier, now you must be punished by having a baby you didn't want?
Take it another step. Are you opposed to infanticide? Where's the logic that because you didn't get an abortion, now you must be punished by raising a baby you didn't want?
And I say this as somebody who's (very reluctantly) pro-choice, at least in the first trimester.
CP: Thanks for sharing the facts.
Tim: Fred Phelps is a looney and a hateful man. I don't know any conservative Christian who supports him. I abhor his tactics and think he needs to be in a mental hospital. Please don't ever lump him in with good people on the right.
Since I am from Kansas City and he is nearby in Kansas I've thought of doing a post on his reprehensible behavior and making sure people know he speaks for only a small # of people.
Neo,soc- It's Tim, not Ted, but thanks. I also believe we will be judged one day, and the people who have had an abortion will answer for it. Judge not, lest ye be Judged.
Jeff h- Please pray for me, maybe you can get God to set me on the sraight and narrow. We are all his children. I know I am flawed and not worthy...
LMC- Write that post condemning Fred Phelps, he's giving Christians a bad name! Remember what we tell Muslims, your silence is just as bad as approving of the message.
Why not just set a fine? Mandatory classes and sex probation until BC certificate is earned. ;)
We have a lot of folks that should be in that category already, Paula.
Unfortunately the courts have said we can't require them to use birth control, and can't cut off tax payer funding of their kids.
On the serious side, there are so many people in this country waiting to adopt babies that they are adopting from China and other countries. So why not have the kid and put it up for adoption, not ruin it's life because you messed up in yours?
Tim, I don't agree with anyone of any stripe using the "F* off" arguement when they don't agree with someone. It's also why I've only banned on person from here (he runs a radical islamic site, and kind of pissed me off).
I'd rather toss logic (as you have) and reason back at them, and let them look like a fool.
And don't worry Tim, I've been called some interesting names by conservatives for a few of my stands on certain issues (including this one).
Jeff, your numbers are right, which is one of the reasons I don't like the procedure. How many Einsteins have been terminated?
As for Tim, he needs to vent more than see a shrink. This is as good an outlet as any.
LMC, NEO, you guys are welcome for the information. Occasionally you find that if you share actual facts and stats some folks will come around on an arguenent. Some won't. My mission isn't to convert everyone to a pro-life stance, but instead give a person on the fence something else to think about.
And LMC, Tim is right, beat up on Phelps, he does give good Christians (which I DO NOT consider myself to be) a bad name.
I still believe "murder" is the correct name for ending innocent life. Would "kill" be better? I won't use PC terms when people need to hear the words.
Tim - what bothered me so much about being called those names is that it brought back memories of a man that used to hit me, then call me worthless and useless and then smile at me. I am even more determined than ever to fight people like that. (Heels dug in deeper.) I've taken all the lumps lying down that I'm going to. It's time for me to stand up. Yeah, it hurt, but I came back fighting and it feels good. (With a little help from CP.)
"So why not have the kid and put it up for adoption"
That's nice for women who want to, but no one should be forced. As far as the "baby," I don't consider it to have any rights at all until significant brain development occurs.
Ascan, the number you are looking for is 0%. There is never a reason for abortion if you practice abstinence from intercourse.
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